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/r/HolUp

33.5k

Yeahhhh About Cleopatra…

Removed: Political/Outrage Shitpost(i.redd.it)

all 2441 comments

AK47_username

5.7k points

6 days ago

Big brain idea. How about stop with remakes and do something original??????

Strudleboy33

1.1k points

6 days ago

Strudleboy33

1.1k points

6 days ago

They gotta keep the IP that’s why they make remakes.

Raff102

376 points

6 days ago

Raff102

376 points

6 days ago

They don't own the ip, there are two other little mermaid movies coming out around the same time.

minizanz

124 points

6 days ago*

minizanz

124 points

6 days ago*

They own all of their characters they made for it, but the big issue is that they have to pay royalties and residuals on the music and characters to the people who made the animated film. If they remake it to "live action" and buy things outright they can get away with way less residuals and can cut off the animated movie staff. They can T Swift near exact copies so long as they are for the sound track and scam so much money away from the original creators.

Here is how it works https://www.ipwatchdog.com/2022/02/22/public-public-domain-winnie-pooh-illustrates-copyright-limitations-public-domain-works/id=146207/

CmdrSelfEvident

24 points

6 days ago*

They own a copyright on their IP which are their savings, drawings, etc. The source books can go public but Disney still owns everything that isn't in the books. Just like snow white or any of their old animated movies based on public domain stories. Further they have no need to do anything to keep their IP. They won't admit that Song of the South exists in pubic yet they still own it.

predator_handshake

48 points

6 days ago

Why not make a sequel then?

Strudleboy33

50 points

6 days ago

That’s a great question. I assume it’s because it’s easier just remaking it.

Bloodaegisx

40 points

6 days ago

Plus look at all the free marketing it has gotten.

Strudleboy33

25 points

6 days ago

Very true, controversy is good for sales. Not that this should really be controversial because honestly why do people care

darkeo1014

10 points

6 days ago

They did a long time ago lol

wanderinglittlehuman

13 points

6 days ago

There are sequels💀

noopenusernames

202 points

6 days ago

If I understand it correctly, it has something to do with preventing their material from entering public domain. That’s why we’re getting remakes of everything, because Disney doesn’t give a shit about anything but making money.

slvrscoobie

108 points

6 days ago

slvrscoobie

108 points

6 days ago

I know Disney had lobbied a billion times for extensions and such on trademark, copyright, etc, just so Mickey Mouse doesnt enter PD because then anyone could print a shirt with the mouse on it.

Kapples14

34 points

6 days ago

Kapples14

34 points

6 days ago

Ah, nothing like Disney lobbyists to fuck things up for the rest of us.

LibraryWonderful6163

26 points

6 days ago

Mickey is a nickname for a friend. And michael mouse the rat is no friend of mine.

the3rdtea

36 points

6 days ago

the3rdtea

36 points

6 days ago

Nah the original novella has been public domain for almost a century

noopenusernames

50 points

6 days ago

The Andersen version, sure. But I think this is likely more about their rights to the songs and other Disney-added things

Pansarmalex

30 points

6 days ago

Also the Disney version is a lot more family friendly than the Andersen orginial story...

AnIrishMexican

7 points

6 days ago

Didn't the priest have a boner and the underwater palace made of dildo like structures in the original Disney version?

RegularNo2608

7 points

5 days ago

Dude, yes. My sister has the old ass VHS still. Years ago when we still had a VCR we checked it out. First, huge dick right in the middle of the old plastic cover. Next, priest pops a huge boner as he starts the vows. Goes flaccid a few words in. All clear as Crystal.

-Mr_Unknown-

32 points

6 days ago

2/3 of Hollywood producers just committed suicide after reading this.

GotYourNose_

13 points

6 days ago

Agreed! It is so hard to come up with an original concept without a remake, sequel or reboot? I refuse to see any more part 2 or electric boogaloo or whatever you want to call it.

GeneralNathanJessup

887 points

6 days ago

Cleopatra was Greek, not Egyptian. The Greeks ruled Egypt since that Great white guy Alexander conquered them.

YesICanMakeMeth

370 points

6 days ago*

Egyptians weren't black either. There's one dynasty (Nubians I think?) from the South that came in and ruled towards the end after the decline but they were not the ones that created the things that you call Egyptian (the pyramids, the tombs, the mythology with Ra/Isis/etc). People think just because it's African that they were black, but really what people mean when they say black is ethnically sub-Saharan Africans. It turns out that the Sahara desert was a larger barrier to migration historically than the Mediterranean sea, so North Africa looked a lot more like the Greeks and Italians and Turks than it did the Ethiopians. There's also been a lot of admixture from Arab migration in post-Islam (hence Egyptians today looking something like half Arab, half Greek/Turk). Some of that might be off, but that's the gist of it from someone that's always been super interested in Greek/Roman history, to which Egypt is related. Carthage and Hannibal is a similar story BTW, despite what the 'History' Channel's historical dramas might have you believe.

skwert99

57 points

6 days ago

skwert99

57 points

6 days ago

It's tough on these in-between types when people base everything on how someone looks. It's like that Egyptian actor that got criticized for not being African enough. They don't care what your actually are, you must look the part to count for diversity.

phasmaphobic

8 points

5 days ago

Remi Malik?

why-everything-meh

2.8k points

6 days ago*

Cleopatra was white tho, the royal house she belongs to was Greek I think. Unless you don’t consider Greek to be white.

Edit: Got a bit of traction on this throw away comment I didn’t put much thought into. To be clear I always thought of Mediterranean people as white like myself, but with a much nicer tan than my pale ass.

Still_counts_as_one

451 points

6 days ago

Yeah, she’s part of Ptolemy line, from Alexander the Greats conquests

BobVosh

180 points

6 days ago

BobVosh

180 points

6 days ago

Egypt liked her, relatively, more than most of the Ptolemy because she bothered to learn Egyptian rather than force everyone to learn Greek.

facw00

82 points

6 days ago

facw00

82 points

6 days ago

She was the first and only of the Ptolemaic rulers to learn Egyptian.

MjrLeeStoned

48 points

6 days ago

She also associated on a much more personal level with both Greek and Egyptian "nobility", celebrities, or politicians, as opposed to just showing up and lording over them like many Greek leaders of her time. She used guile and wit over brute force. She was versed in medicine, philosophy, literature.

She spoke probably around 10 languages.

That being said, she still had high ambition and felt it was her (divine?) right to rule over people and for them to see her as their queen. She just knew how to sway the people far better than her predecessors.

BobVosh

15 points

6 days ago

BobVosh

15 points

6 days ago

Speaking of movies, or hopefully shows, I would love a long series on her with some accuracy.

bigboygamer

4 points

5 days ago

Rome doesn't do a terrible job, though she isn't the focus

thissideofheat

32 points

6 days ago

In fact, North Africa and the overall Mediterranean coastal cities in general, were more European due to the early Phonetician and then Greek expansions.

The Carthaginian and later Roman conquests reinforced this European influence for over a thousand years.

Then the Arab Expansions in 600s AD significantly changed the genetic makeup - likely giving folks a darker complexion.

Later, the Ottoman conquests added even more genetic diversity to that in Egypt & the Levant, and even in the Balkans and Greece/Cyprus. There's even a Greek word for people from Cyprus that look at little "too" Turkish.

...as you might expect, it's complicated. There have been a LOT of genocides and a lot migrations.

The dumbest claim is to look at current Egyptians or Palestinians and claim that that's what ancient Egyptians or Jesus looked like.

Gweedoke

924 points

6 days ago

Gweedoke

924 points

6 days ago

Ive been to Greece multiple times and seen paler Greeks than my white North European ass.

Hydra1305

240 points

6 days ago

Hydra1305

240 points

6 days ago

As a pale greek myself I can confirm

Whatever-ItsFine

124 points

6 days ago

The Pale Greeks are my favorite indie band.

RevenantBacon

24 points

6 days ago

And my favorite pale ale brand!

Redqueenhypo

55 points

6 days ago

Yeah Europeans and Mediterraneans of any nationality don’t look really that different unless you go to Scandinavia. With no context clues I highly doubt anyone could consistently distinguish Greeks from dark haired Irish from Ashkenazi Jewish from Lebanese.

iaintevenmad884

19 points

6 days ago

Can confirm, I’m black Irish and have been asked “are you Jewish” and other questions like that by schoolchildren and old people the world over.

Redqueenhypo

13 points

6 days ago

I’m Jewish and have been asked “are you Irish”! And one time in the 1970s someone called my dad a “fuckin mick”. Full circle.

Fokkzel

39 points

6 days ago

Fokkzel

39 points

6 days ago

Thats the whole reason for this post right?

libjones

9 points

6 days ago

libjones

9 points

6 days ago

Yea it is, so the fact so many people here are trying to pretend they’re smarter than OP by pointing that out is honestly mind blowing to me. Like it’s not even a deep cut that you need a history degree to know, it’s literally middle school history class level knowledge...

jedeye121

216 points

6 days ago

jedeye121

216 points

6 days ago

That’s correct. She was of the Ptolemaic Dynasy, founded by (Macedonian) general Ptolemy I Soter, who was one of Alexander the Great’s generals. Cleopatra was born in Egypt, but she was Macedonian/Greek by heritage, not Egyptian.

why-everything-meh

29 points

6 days ago

Thank you for being much more knowledgeable and articulate than me good sir!

gorgewall

87 points

6 days ago

gorgewall

87 points

6 days ago

Unless you don’t consider Greek to be white.

The concept of "whiteness" is a hilariously recent thing.

Benjamin Franklin famously wrote that pretty much all of Europe wasn't white: just "the Anglos" and specifically the Saxony region of Germany. Any other part of Germany? Not white. Italy? Not white. Greece? Not white. Poland? Not white.

And when those folks showed up in America even decades after Franklin's death, they still weren't "white". Whiteness is a descriptor of political convenience, a little club that you get to be in once you have the population to be relevant to the ruling class. All these migrant groups, and even their descendants, were villified or ostracized in some way until there were enough of them that they were a valuable voting bloc, then came the time to "extend whiteness" to them and hope that by being welcomed "into the club" that they'd vote with the same fuckos who'd previously been shitting all over them. Hey, no hard feelings about all the bigotry, but you're one of the good ones now--wanna help me oppress those other guys?

CareerJuncture

33 points

6 days ago

Benjamin Franklin famously wrote that pretty much all of Europe wasn't white

This is true and it cracks me up.

I'm from outside the USA, so the term "white" has only been used commonly in the past few decades, BUT, it cracks me up that the majority of my Great-Grandfathers were Irish and were not considered white.

Toastburger

12 points

6 days ago

Benjamin Franklin famously wrote that pretty much all of Europe wasn’t white: just “the Anglos” and specifically the Saxony region of Germany. Any other part of Germany? Not white. Italy? Not white. Greece? Not white. Poland? Not white.

He also said Swedes weren’t white, they were “swarthy”.

Twava

8 points

6 days ago

Twava

8 points

6 days ago

Whiteness is such a weird term. I don’t see why we went from generalizing everyone instead of just referring to people by their nationalities. I’ve always despised those terms because it’s so biased on what people consider white or black. “White people always act like this” or “Black people always act like that” since when did the color of your skin make you act a certain way? It might just be an American thing though, but I don’t know I’ve never liked the structure of ethnicity. It’s just SO broad.

BellBell99

5 points

6 days ago

Yup. Whiteness has always been about exclusion, not about skin color. I mean fucking Italians and Irish people weren’t considered white back when they were mass migrating to the States.

Efthimis

51 points

6 days ago

Efthimis

51 points

6 days ago

Who on earth doesn't consider us Greeks to be white? My girlfriend is German and my skin tone is more white than hers.

why-everything-meh

27 points

6 days ago

I have no idea, I am Scottish and pale AF and had never given it much thought. But always considered Mediterranean people white.

pantsthereaper

9 points

6 days ago

Irish used to be not white too. I've met plenty of Latinos with really pale skin, but they aren't white because they were born in Mexico or Columbia. Racial purity is a constantly changing circle of the "in" group based entirely on how much support is needed to push an agenda

dabbo90

30 points

6 days ago

dabbo90

30 points

6 days ago

Yea she was from Macedonia

Vipertooth123

19 points

6 days ago

There's people (guess from where) that considers spaniards, portuguese, italians, greeks and irish as non-white.

why-everything-meh

8 points

6 days ago

Ok some of that I could buy but the Irish are almost as white as us Scottish 😂

Briaria

9 points

6 days ago

Briaria

9 points

6 days ago

Yes, that is the point of this post. Thank you.

SynthyCyberSamurai

97 points

6 days ago

OP didn’t do his research.

YesICanMakeMeth

137 points

6 days ago

I thought that was the point he was making since this is /r/holup and he said 'Yeaaaah, about Cleopatra'. It's an actual 'holup, Cleopatra wasn't black' moment. Hard to tell though, since a lot of posts in this sub aren't actually hol'ups but just 'woah bro that's crazy' type posts.

xaronax

16 points

6 days ago

xaronax

16 points

6 days ago

Mouth breathers out in force today.

BrokenManSyndrome

7.1k points

6 days ago

As a black person my issue with these racial recastings isn't that there is anything inherently wrong with a black mermaid. It's just that rather than create a story from the ground up about a black character, studios just decide "black people are too uninteresting, so let's just change a white character to black to trick people into liking them!" How about you create a story based around a black character than just race switching a white character for diversity browny points? If you truly care about POC then make an actual effort.

officialmonogato

1.5k points

6 days ago

Thank you! This is really the most sane comment. We don’t need “remakes” with people of different ethnicities, we need new stories with new characters!

AngeloPappas

413 points

6 days ago

You can even take ethnicity out of it and just say "we don't need remakes". Rather than pigeonhole writers to remakes, let's get some new diverse projects.

All these remakes are just so stale and boring.

darki_ruiz

110 points

6 days ago

darki_ruiz

110 points

6 days ago

At least limit remakes to when you're intending to either fix or substancially improve something that wasn't too well done before.

A decent remake of Green Lantern? Go nuts.

A remake of 1992's Tim Burton's Batman Returns? Lolno.

PlumbumDirigible

22 points

6 days ago*

I really, really want a John Stewart Green Lantern movie. I loved the character on the Justice League animated show back in the day

edit: misspelled name

kommunis

11 points

6 days ago

kommunis

11 points

6 days ago

nah.. best we can do is a Black Hal Jordan.

raptor6722

48 points

6 days ago

Well these Disney live action remakes seem to really just be a way to continue copyrights so I’m not sure quality is really on the list.

darkeo1014

12 points

6 days ago

They don't own the rights to the original little mermaid story it is free use....with a much darker ending

raptor6722

11 points

6 days ago*

Yes but they do own the rights to the likeness of Ariel and Sebastian. If you made a little mermaid with a talking crab that had a jamacain accent you would probably get some paperwork from Disney. Edit: apparently he’s a crab

SwordTaster

23 points

6 days ago

Walt Disney wrote into Disney law that all of his movies are required to have a remake every however many years so that a new generation could grow up with them. Its not exactly their choice at this stage but a contractual obligation

TheOtherWhiteCastle

13 points

6 days ago

So? What’s gonna happen if they ignore that law? Is Walt gonna come rise up from his grave to fire their asses or something?

bossycloud

3 points

6 days ago

Don't tempt him

SalvationSycamore

10 points

6 days ago

Then make a high quality animated remake. Every live action remake looks like a steaming pile of shit.

nuggex

19 points

6 days ago

nuggex

19 points

6 days ago

Source?

Warlordnipple

14 points

6 days ago

I think it was a joke as such a will request would be unenforceable. It wouldn't be a contract because death generally discharges most contracts.

MakeoutPoint

66 points

6 days ago

Just heard a black man say "y'all just love to take white folks' sloppy seconds" and hoo boy did that hit some people's nerves on this topic.

FTLMantis

29 points

6 days ago

FTLMantis

29 points

6 days ago

Reddit is such a fickle bitch. Last time I said this I got called a racist and banned from a sub.

Lendyman

192 points

6 days ago*

Lendyman

192 points

6 days ago*

I totally get you here.

I'm fine with a black Ariel. If the actress playing her was the right person for the role, I think that's awesome.

The problem I see is that there is a question on why she was cast in the role. Was it to check off a diversity box? Are we giving people roles just because we're trying to earn brownie points for diversity? That almost seems like what happened here. If so, it seems like a lack of integrity somehow. Like giving lip service but not actually meaning it.

Africa has such a rich cultural history. There's so much there in terms of mythology and legend and real history. How about we embrace that stuff and create stories around that rich and diverse cultural heritage instead of trying shoehorn people of color into things so you can check off the required diversity boxes just because they are there.

It almost seems like Disney courted the controversy to get attention. "Look at us! We're diverse! We are better than those unwashed racists!"

Oh really?

If you really care about diversity then embrace cultures outside of our own and add those stories to the overall cultural conversation. I would love an African Disney princess. That would be cool as hell.

FireCatalyst

70 points

6 days ago*

That's the game plan. If you make a piece of garbage media with diverse casting you can absolve yourself of all blame by gaslighting fans and calling it racist backlash.

Modern society lives and dies by narratives these days, not the truth of the matter.

BlyLomdi

17 points

6 days ago*

BlyLomdi

17 points

6 days ago*

I would LOVE to see some African princesses and characters. They have done Asian (twice), Polynesian and now Colombian (Mirabel is considereda princess, for now). And then there is Coco and Turning Red. Give me some more culture!!! You know it's going to make money because it's fucking Disney, and people just eat it up because... it's fucking Disney (myself included). Can you imagine how beautiful, colorful and rich those stories would be?

And, I will give this to Disney and Pixar, when it comes to new stories like that they really go out of their way--usually-- to research and be mostly faithful. Ffs, they filmed a Polynesian woman for over 24 hours just to see how her hair moves when dry, when wet, when moving this way or that, etc. for Moana's hair to make it as accurate as possible. They sent a team who spent 2 months (I think) in Colombia for Encanto to get as much history, culture and whatnot.

Mazzaroppi

3 points

6 days ago

*Colombia

BlyLomdi

4 points

6 days ago

BlyLomdi

4 points

6 days ago

Omg ty. I am sick right now and missed that.

BrokenManSyndrome

53 points

6 days ago

Agreed. It's just so lazy. As much hate as The Woman King is getting for it's historical inaccuracies (which is a fair point) at least it's actually trying.

Lendyman

27 points

6 days ago*

Lendyman

27 points

6 days ago*

The historical inaccuracy thing is pretty standard for Hollywood. You look at any historical epic that Hollywood has done and it's almost always inaccurate in some way. There have been some doozies that claim to be based on true events but are way off. Obviously some films are worse than others. I have no idea how bad this one is but I feel like the historical accuracy thing is a whole different argument. It's also an argument that comes up with every historical epic.

I have been watching the trailers for that with some interest. As someone who grew up in africa, I've long wanted more Afrocentric films. I'll definitely be checking it out once it's available to me.

GirthWoody

36 points

6 days ago

Your definitely right that Hollywood has been falsely portraying history for forever. This one was pretty bad though. The story revolves around a tribe who is depicted as being liberators fighting slavers. They chose this tribe because the tribe was historically famous for their female warriors. However, the tribe was also historically the most notorious slave traders of their time. The tribe sold hundreds of thousands possibly higher than a million people into slavery. So that’s what people were mad over.

Lendyman

13 points

6 days ago*

Lendyman

13 points

6 days ago*

Yeah... ok. They were trying to do an empowered women movie and ignored the elephant in the room. (More like shoved it under the rug and hoped that no one would notice)

I can totally see why some people would be upset about it. It's one thing if you bodge History a bit for the sake of story. It's another when you try to completely rewrite it.

Sort of like Disney's Pocahontas. I still haven't seen that film because even when I was a teen when it came out I found the historical rewriting to be icky.

I guess when I see it, I'll try to go into it with the mindset of historical fiction rather than historical portrayal.

usa2z

3 points

6 days ago

usa2z

3 points

6 days ago

The historical inaccuracy thing is pretty standard for Hollywood. You look at any historical epic that Hollywood has done and it's almost always inaccurate in some way.

I've heard The Woman King called a Braveheart with Black Women. This really hits the nail on the head.

noopenusernames

92 points

6 days ago

Fucking thank you. I got banned from r/Entertainment because I started to make this claim after suggesting that realism in movies was more important than inclusion for the sake of inclusion. It’s also lazy on Disney’s part because they’re it also comes across more as then just using black people s as a way to continue protecting their copywrit material but letting us all think it’s because they give a shit about minorities.

If you really want to give black peoples exposure? Give us an original story, preferably something that’s not an 1800’s-era-escape-from-slavery story either.

BrokenManSyndrome

60 points

6 days ago

Bro, I'm so tired of those slavery movies. It's like black people's entire identity is slavery. Or if it's not that it's those modern day "blaxploitation" relationship movies, like Tyler Perry or "Think Like A Man". I just want to see a movie about a black person I could actually relate to.

Forgot to add the stereotypical gangster movies. Let's have more black led action movies, both male and female. More black led war dramas, epic romances, sci-fi, etc...

noopenusernames

45 points

6 days ago

Part of the problem is that we as black people also like to use slavery as our own identity, so it’s hard to blame Hollywood for doing the same thing. How often do we go through another “should black people be paid reparations for slavery?” phase when none of us were slaves and many of us likely didn’t come over to America (or our ancestors, obviously) until after slavery. Everyone, ourselves included, treat our skin color as our identity, but Hollywood is probably the biggest cultural driving factor. Yes, once they stop saying “this is a movie about a black person being black” and change it to “this is about an astronaut being the first person on Mars” then our image to non-black people will begin to change, then it will be up to us to change our own views on our identities. Hollywood gets to continue to be lazy with our narrative and use us as props for their profit in the meantime

BrokenManSyndrome

27 points

6 days ago

Agree 100%. Slavery was horrible and it's effects are still felt today, but people act like all our misfortune is because of slavery. Like it couldn't possibly be due to some of our choices. I hate this culture of lack of accountability. Also, I don't wanna hear about any slavery reparations until native Americans are taken care of. The group that got screwed the most yet no one seems to care about.

noopenusernames

9 points

6 days ago

Yeah. Nevermind the fact that the US government made a treaty with the Sioux for the Black Hills, and then later on was like “Ah shit, there be some gold over there? Nah, let’s send the army in, that shits ours…”

Solid_Growth_9069

5 points

6 days ago

I’d love to see a ww2 one about the original d boys fighting in the Ardennes forest

Them boys went through hell

A7omicDog

7 points

6 days ago

Princess and the Frog, set in Louisiana, was based on this. The "Princess" wasn't black for convenience -- it was actually ingrained the in setting and storyline. Great movie!

That being said, I've literally never heard anyone actually upset about Ariel, I've only heard of people upset about people upset about Ariel.

mtnorville

16 points

6 days ago

An ironic part of this sentiment, regardless of how correct it is, is that you can’t please anybody when you make an original black character. They’re either not black enough, or too black. They arent written by ONLY black people so it’s not realistic enough. They can’t like this, or support that. They can’t be rich, but they have to be successful. They aren’t allowed to fail. Or the opposite. And when its a decent story, it’s paraded and celebrated as “BLACK” like it’s the only part that matters.

youllneverstopmeayyy

4 points

6 days ago

it's quite maddening, isn't it.

I think I'd like to leave this planet soon

yaon-jinji

17 points

6 days ago

Thank you! Raceswapping is giving "leftovers" to minorities instead of a full course.

thissideofheat

3 points

6 days ago

The irony is that the EXACT same comment with the words "As a black person.." removed, would have been downvoted to oblivion.

Exotic_Treacle7438

10 points

6 days ago

They don’t though. Disney only cares about the dollar. And you and I aren’t the target audience for the movie for them to care unfortunately. It would have made sense to create a new mermaid movie with an original story but that’s not the safe bet. The original movie is a proven cash cow story and they are attempting to cater to the younger audience to maintain the generational gap their brand has. There’s always some major change between generations they’re attempting to build nostalgia to keep them “loving” the brand well into adulthood. And this new movie coming off the back of almost a decade of civil protests will capture those kids.

ShadowFlarer

14 points

6 days ago

Agreed, and lets be honest, there's a LOT of stories and legends around the world that has black characters in it, hell here in Brazil we have Saci Perere, why not make a movie about him? He's awesome!

[deleted]

4 points

6 days ago

[deleted]

4 points

6 days ago

[removed]

Drendari

6 points

6 days ago

Drendari

6 points

6 days ago

Agree, it looks like Blacksploitation but bad.

eskimoexplosion

373 points

6 days ago*

Wasn't Cleopatra Greek? She was the daughter of Ptolemy XII who was Macedonian. Its very possible she looked like the actress in the picture but afaik no one really knows what she looked like as little is known about her mother. She could have been pretty much anything other than Eastern Asian so really anyone can play cleopatra. Saying she was whitewashed assumes she was certifiably not white which there is no proof for or against based on current evidence

https://denison.edu/academics/classical-studies/wh/136845

noopenusernames

91 points

6 days ago

Yes, people like to forget this fact

eskimoexplosion

53 points

6 days ago*

Most people just know Cleopatra was the Queen of Egypt, and Egypt is in Africa, and people from Africa aren't white. I can see how someone would think she was whitewashed based solely on that and nothing else. The reality is a bit more complicated

Best_Toster

57 points

6 days ago

Yeah like the fact that africa is huge af and Northern Africa has more in common with Greece or Italy then central Africa

eskimoexplosion

15 points

6 days ago

Theres also the assumption people have the regional diversity is the exact same as current day. There was a lot of movement and conquering and displacement over the centuries espescially in and around the Mediterranean. Modern day Sicilian people have more in common with the people of Northern France than the original Mediterranean inhabitants and people in modern day Ukraine can trace a lot of their genetics to Viking settlers from Scandinavia rather than the original inhabitants which looked more like current day central Asians or Turks

noopenusernames

7 points

6 days ago

Yeah, there’s a lot of whiteness in Northern Africa. It was alleys easier to travel north across the Med than south across the land

The69BodyProblem

5 points

6 days ago

Those royal circles were pretty tight nigh(the Ptolemys were pretty incestuous). I think its a pretty good bet that her mother was Greek.

Ltcaustic

625 points

6 days ago*

Ltcaustic

625 points

6 days ago*

Fun fact Egypt back then would have been white/mixed due to the Egyptians losing pigment due to being in a cooler climate then where they had migrated from and the people of Egypt having sex with Romans Greeks and other major European civilisations back in The day

Still_counts_as_one

217 points

6 days ago

Also, Cleopatra is from the Ptolemy line, who was Greek and white. So portrayal of Cleopatra was accurate for the color, just not the age.

Doktor_Cornholio

349 points

6 days ago

But Africa = Black!!!!!!!!!

fourth_box

118 points

6 days ago

fourth_box

118 points

6 days ago

But my friend told me; Once you go black you never go back!!

HYPE_ZaynG

87 points

6 days ago

But my friend told me: Once you go white, you're always right!!!

hoptownky

69 points

6 days ago

hoptownky

69 points

6 days ago

But my friend told me: Once you go…I’m just kidding. I don’t have any friends.

KM617

16 points

6 days ago

KM617

16 points

6 days ago

But my friend told me: Once you go white, your credit gets right!

AllGodzDie

12 points

6 days ago

Elon obviously bleached his skin!

ChakraKami

38 points

6 days ago*

Egyptian people are Caucasian (north Africa) not black, I'm Egyptian and when i moved to usa i was categorized as white by the uscis because i was Caucasian from north Africa. My skin is lighter than my husband's who is 100% white American.

Edit: fixed it :)

ugraba

3 points

6 days ago

ugraba

3 points

6 days ago

You have dark skinned populations in the south. Like in Aswan.

Jack_Vaults

121 points

6 days ago

Jack_Vaults

121 points

6 days ago

Imagine the writers shock when he finds out she was Greek and imagine the absolute mind fuck the writer got when they found out Greeks are pretty much white

qazwsx1227

17 points

6 days ago

I think she was Greek in real life

dRUNk_ENd

52 points

6 days ago

dRUNk_ENd

52 points

6 days ago

Isn't Cleopatra from Greece?

ImnotaNixon

12 points

6 days ago

Descendant from Greece yes

CoraxTechnica

38 points

6 days ago

Cleopatra WAS white!

Polka-51

10 points

6 days ago

Polka-51

10 points

6 days ago

M I l k e r s

The_Moon_Conure

122 points

6 days ago

Hollywood didn't white wash Jesus, the church did

SloptimusXPrime

47 points

6 days ago

They also black, yellow and brown washed him

jakedann91

42 points

6 days ago

Korean Jesus is all that matters

SloptimusXPrime

22 points

6 days ago

He's busy. With KOREAN shit

Fern-ando

16 points

6 days ago

Fern-ando

16 points

6 days ago

Mediterranean paintors painting mediterranean Jesus as the average mediterranean isn't even whitewashing in my book.

OhGollyGoshDarn

31 points

6 days ago

Not a good comparison. Cleopatra was Greek, and from a long line of Ptomely Greek rulers, so yeah is she probably did look like Elizabeth Taylor. It’s a moot issue, little mermaid is based on a Dutch fairy tale and was portrayed as white with red hair in it. Disney should have just created a whole new story with a black mermaid based on a separate African story instead of creating this shitstorm by recasting a european fairy tale like this

daughterofblackmoon

12 points

6 days ago

Disney knew exactly what they were doing. I don't know when people are going to realize that they're being played.

captainjimi

53 points

6 days ago

Well... I know this probably doesn't belong here but... Cleopatra was actually Greece. She was an ancestor of Ptolemaios dynasty so... She was probably white.

Jaadu23

82 points

6 days ago

Jaadu23

82 points

6 days ago

Did anyone notice how hot this milf is?

punnyboy_curtis

30 points

6 days ago

Someone should marry her

baddestmofointhe209

29 points

6 days ago

About 8 times over.

FunAd6145

7 points

6 days ago

Yes

PuggyPaddie

6 points

5 days ago

I think cleopatra was white though…maybe olive because of the sun but def greek.

Wacken718

20 points

6 days ago

Wacken718

20 points

6 days ago

Cleopatra was Greek so...

SqueakBoxx

50 points

6 days ago

I'm probably gunna get hate for this but Cleopatra is a shitty example of claiming white washing as she would be, In the current technical sense, be considered white as she was of Greek origin.

GuywithShield

23 points

6 days ago

That's the point of the Hold up

Impossible-Animator6

6 points

6 days ago

Cleopatra came out 60 years ago !!! It was a completely different era. Why is it still being brought up.

Widawak

3 points

6 days ago

Widawak

3 points

6 days ago

She was also pretty white being 100% Greek

prof_dynamite

6 points

6 days ago

Cleopatra was white. I got nothing for Jesus, though.

nstav13

7 points

6 days ago

nstav13

7 points

6 days ago

Everyone's saying Cleopatra was Greek but forgetting that Jesus didn't exist.

TeaMoney4Life

6 points

6 days ago

I just hate the remakes. Disney already made a bunch of perfect movies, why degrade them with bad live action versions

AlienOverlord53

30 points

6 days ago

This movie is from 1963. It's not even a close comparison

Widawak

18 points

6 days ago

Widawak

18 points

6 days ago

And she was definitely closer to white than black. Ya know being Greek and all that

Rude_Device

9 points

6 days ago

Exactly. I think that we can all agree that things were a little fucked up 60 years ago when it came to race relations

Wise-Sense5782

15 points

6 days ago

Even non Greek Egyptians aren't black.

NoRealId

6 points

6 days ago

NoRealId

6 points

6 days ago

Obviously, yes

FireCatalyst

5 points

6 days ago

OP drinking coolaid. The Ptolemy family came from Alexander's generals who took control of his fractured empire. Pick up a book

They are of Macedonian origin

funpen

4 points

6 days ago

funpen

4 points

6 days ago

Cleopatra was white. She is greek, not Egyptian. Also, ancient Egypt was extremely diverse, and in some ways more diverse than present day egypt.

sweettrevor

6 points

6 days ago

I mean, there’s a high chance Cleopatra was very light skinned or white historically speaking, but I agree with this sentiment completely. People like Ghandi have been played by white actors, which is ridiculous.

Zealousideal-Rock-33

5 points

6 days ago

News flash---neither Cleopatra nor Jesus were "black." Cleopatra was Greek....meaning she looked a lot like Gal Gadot while Jesus was Jewish, meaning he looked a lot like well, Ori Pfeffer.

OneLastBan

6 points

5 days ago

The west white-washed Jesus and the East Asian-washed him. Every area depicts Jesus as one of their own to make him more relatable... that's just how it is. He should actually look like an ancient Jewish Roman

FlailingDave

6 points

5 days ago

cleopatra was Greek. that is to say, white.

READ a book once in a while.

Pile_of_AOL_CDs

6 points

5 days ago

Look, I hate white washing as much as the next guy, but for God's sake, Cleopatra was Greek.

Muther-Russia

19 points

6 days ago

Cleopatra was white lmao, she’s greek

Wprzkkkk

26 points

6 days ago

Wprzkkkk

26 points

6 days ago

Disney is just lazy, instead of changing Ariel they should just create another character with their own story and no one would have any problem with it. Imagine making live action Princess and the frog or whatever it is called and changing it so the main character is white.

BT_DUBB

13 points

6 days ago

BT_DUBB

13 points

6 days ago

I don’t care if the little mermaid is black, I just want them to be played by Samuel L. Jackson

“How could I be,

Apart of this mfin world!”

gamingkeks284LP

3 points

6 days ago

I thought cleopatra was greek, wtf?

Distinct-Cake6612

4 points

6 days ago

Kind of off topic, but Cleopatra was actually from a Greek origin. So yeah, she would most probably have been white/olive skin with dark hair and eyes.

pmaurant

4 points

6 days ago

pmaurant

4 points

6 days ago

Wasn’t Cleopatras family Greek?

Negative_Finding_616

3 points

6 days ago

Ngl they knew that making the mermaid black would cause controversy. They want that. They get free advertising of that junk. Also it’s a movie that I’m not going to watch, I don’t really care about it, and again I don’t care about it. It’s honestly not as big of a deal as both sides of the argument are making it out to be. My question is though if Ariel can be played by a black actress, doe’s that mean that Mulan should be played by a white actress? Just think about!

Alexius_Psellos

5 points

5 days ago

POV: you forgot that cleopatra was Greek

Strudleboy33

10 points

6 days ago

Wasn’t cleopatra Greek?

link

Illustrious-Joke6643

10 points

5 days ago

1) Cleopatra was part of the Ptolemaic line of Greece. She wasn't African.
2) Mermaids are mythological. This uproar is foolishness and immaturity.

skunkadelic

60 points

6 days ago

I don't know a single person who gives a fuck about the color of a mermaid. I honestly think most of this is hype.

RichLowLife

46 points

6 days ago

90% don’t like having a remake when the only justification seems to be „We gave her tanned skin“.

HalfysReddit

3 points

6 days ago

It's definitely an internet thing, honestly if it wasn't for some people on Reddit getting so upset about it, I wouldn't have even known there's a new Little Mermaid movie. Like I'm sure they spent some money on advertising but I haven't seen any advertisements myself, and general discussions between people tend to be about the upcoming fall weather and associated holidays.

uchuucowboy

32 points

6 days ago

Because they didn't laud Cleopatra's casting as a racial statement, nobody thought anything of it. But obviously they made it a selling point, with even the actress tweeting race-bended artwork when it was first announced. Essentially they are selling race and that's why people are upset, it's a blatant cash grab

mugen1337

10 points

6 days ago

mugen1337

10 points

6 days ago

The sad thing is, it gets hijacked by people who are factually upset about the blackwashing without even considering it's a blatant attempt to do a cash grab as you put it.

averyveryniceguyffs

3 points

6 days ago

Do we have any idea how cleopatra actually looked like though? IIRC a lot of "Egyptian" rulers were actually Romans and Greeks, so pretty fucking white

Rhets

7 points

6 days ago

Rhets

7 points

6 days ago

She was born in Egypt but in terms of Family she was Macedonian

PrometheusHasFallen

3 points

6 days ago

Cleopatra as far as I'm aware was a direct descendant of Ptolemy, Alexander the Great's lieutenant who took control of Egypt after his passing. I checked her lineage and it looks 100% Greek.

Ikaros9Deidalos6

3 points

6 days ago

To be fair cleopatra was from the greek royal dynasty the ptolemains who took over after Alexander died and while she wasnt bible belt karen white she still was caucasian descent

Brian_357

3 points

6 days ago

Do Tarzan next, oh wait...

kwartylion

3 points

6 days ago

Do you really want to talk about movies Disney made at the time ?

Jefoid

3 points

6 days ago

Jefoid

3 points

6 days ago

Wasn’t Cleopatra Greek?

lightofyourlifehere

3 points

6 days ago

Ceopatra was white, she was Greek

MaximGnerd

3 points

6 days ago*

Don't forget about the show called Anne Boleyn, no hate against the actors, just no one (that I've seen) has talked about that race swap

Edit: also cleopatra would've been like semi white as the Ptolemaic Kingdom (a Greek kingdom) was what happened to Egypt after the fall of the Macedonian Empire

SonOtoh

3 points

6 days ago

SonOtoh

3 points

6 days ago

Cleopatra was Greek. Nice try.

wolfmanpraxis

3 points

6 days ago*

wasn't Cleopatra of the Ptolemy Dynasty, you know, the descendants of a Macedonian-Greek General from Alexander's Army?

I also recall that she was the first & only Ptolemaic Pharaoh to actually speak Egyptian, as her family mostly spoke a dialect of Greek?

Not trying to start a fight, but dont Greek people consider themselves "white"?

Longjumping_Piglet38

3 points

6 days ago

A black Anne Boleyn anyone?

JazzSharksFan54

3 points

6 days ago

Lol Cleopatra was literally Greek.

dellicarweenie

3 points

6 days ago

Cleopatra was of Greek decent born in Egypt.

GoatTacos

3 points

6 days ago

I will totally sign a petition to get Mark Henry from the WWE to play Cleopatra in the reboot. It’s only fair.

nila_nila

3 points

6 days ago

I thought Cleopatra was [part] Macedonian and hence white?

Gildor12

3 points

6 days ago

Gildor12

3 points

6 days ago

cleopatra was Greek, not Egyptian

fekbasket

3 points

6 days ago

But cleopatra was white

itzagreenmario

3 points

6 days ago

real historical figures, like Jesus

lol

Govoleo

3 points

6 days ago

Govoleo

3 points

6 days ago

cleopatra had greek origins so tecnically she was white.

iGirthy

3 points

6 days ago

iGirthy

3 points

6 days ago

I haven’t seen one comment pointing out how Jesus is labeled a “real historical figure”.. we just letting this one slide folks?

lurkingPessimist

3 points

6 days ago

Haha “real…like Jesus”

Srgnt_Fuzzyboots

3 points

6 days ago

Real historical figures like Jesus?!?! Wtf...

okay-wait-wut

3 points

6 days ago

Lost me at “real historical figure” and “Jesus” as the example.

SmileDaemon

3 points

6 days ago

Real historical figures

Jesus

metalguru1975

3 points

5 days ago

Cleopatra was ethnically Greek, not Egyptian.

Look that up.