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It's happened to all of us.

You come across a fascinating post and are just dying to discuss it but the thread is stale or archived. Or you are doing a reread and come across the perfect piece of evidence to that theory you posted months ago. Or you have a theory forming on the tip of your tongue and isn't quite there yet and would love to hash it out with fellow crows.

Now is your time.

You now all have permission to give that old thread the kiss of life, shamelessly plug your own theory you are proud of, or share something that was overlooked or deserves another analysis.

So share that old link or that shiny theory still bouncing around in your head with a fresh TL;DR (to get us to read it) along with anything new you would like to add.

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For some reason, I'm in love with "Bittersteel". I just feel like it's such a cold and steong nickname and it adds to its power the fact that it's become the slogan for one of the most dangerous mercenary groups in the world.

Assuming it’s a boy, I like the name Stevron in honour of his first born son who died in the war

Could be from Reddit, Twitter, or out in the wild, anywhere. Just anything you’ve heard someone say about asoiaf that made you sick to your stomach.

I’ve seen a quote passed around a couple times about how George wrote himself into a corner by killing off a major character too early, was wondering if the sub had any further background to this notion and a consensus as to who that character is.

Kevan seems like he would make sense because without him the Lannisters just disintegrate, which they would anyway but I could see the timeline becoming tricky there

I’ve seen Quentyn mentioned, and I think that would be poetic. George fucking himself over by killing off the most logical Dany —> Westeros pathway because he couldn’t help but to “SuBVerT tHe HEro’S joUrnEY” for the billionth time.

Any other candidates?

just finished ACOK and found out jaime will be a POV character in ASOS and i’m really pumped. are his chapters any good or should i manage my expectations?

There have been many moments where diplomacy was in use in the main story of ASOIAF, whenever it was under the forms of lords or kings or queen meeting and talking with a diplomatic envoy or delegate, them sending peace or negociation terms in the form of a letter, alliance or marriage proposals with another kingdom or region, or sending hostages or wards or sending back persons or items as part of an accord or treaty.

But what is or are the worst case(s) of diplomacy ever seen in the main series, the moment(s) where the character trying to negociate something did something so stupid that it could cause deads to roll into their graves, or where he or she offered the craziest and most retarded offer or terms for an alliance or peace imagineable with him/her asking for the moon or on the contrary giving the key to his/her chicken hen to the fox with far too generous terms ?

I'd say that Cersei Lannister's slight of the Iron Bank of Braavos is a work of art in anti-diplomacy with her defering all the payments to repay the Iron Bank just so she could build her own lavish royal fleet, because she was so paranoid about the Tyrell and Redwyne Fleet, and then callously dismissing and humiliating the Iron Bank envoy thus causing the Iron Bank to increase its support of Stannis, call back all of its debts in Westeros and refuse any new loan causing economic chaos in Westeros.

There's also Balon Greyjoy's refusal of Robb Stark's alliance offer, and his alliance proposal to Tywin Lannister with him offering an alliance but if the Iron Throne recognises him as an independent king and grant him everything north of the Neck. Tywin evidently had none of it, pointing out that Balon was already doing for free what he was offering to Tywin and to the Iron Throne, and having no delusion on the Ironborn's capacity to hold the North, nor any intention to deprive his family of less territory to rule over in Westeros.

just finished ACOK and the only mention of her i believe is from Sansas memories. last thing i heard about her if i’m not mistaken is that Littlefinger took her somewhere after shit hits the fan in AGOT. i swear if that’s all we get about her and she’s just written out of the story i’m gonna be pissed 💔.

just let her come back and marry Beric Dondarion and let them live happily ever after.

For me it has to be probably Tywin. The overwhelming message of "his legacy is BS" is very apparent in his later books

I’ll go first…

North of the Wall: Varamyr Sixskins - The man rides a bloody snow bear! Not to mention warging a shadow cat, three wolves and an eagle.

The Wall: Grenn - Takes the hand he’s dealt and rolls with it. Throughout the books we see him improving constantly. Well on his way to becoming one of the best rangers.

The North: Robb Stark - Still a boy when he was forced into rebellion against the crown. Had to win over the Northmen, fight in numerous battles and plan said battles too. If those Westerlings hadn’t got in the way, we’d still have The King in The North!

Iron Isles: Victarion Greyjoy - Second best commander in Westeros. Troubled character with a lot going on. Best of a bad bunch for me.

The Riverlands: Brynden Tully - The Blackfish himself! Responsible for a lot of The Young Wolf’s success, and has victories going back to The War of the Ninepenny Kings. Overall badass.

The Vale: Vardis Egen - Served as a loyal Captain of the Guard to Jon Arryn. During Tyrion’s trial by combat, unlike others, he was reluctant to plead the right to be Lysa’s champion, as it would be shameful to fight against a dwarf. After Bronn is proclaimed Tyrion’s champion, he takes Jon’s ceremonial sword at the behest of Lysa, and unfortunately falls to Bronn’s sellsword tactics.

Crownlands: Jacelyn Bywater - Overall a just and fair Commander of the City Watch, but most importantly of all, stood up against Cersei, the man’s hand and will is absolute iron.

Stormlands: Cortnay Penrose - Absolute legend this man is. As Castellan of Storms End he stood against Stannis Baratheon and his foreign God, all while delivering some of the best comebacks in ASOIAF, such as: ”Is it the justice of your cause you doubt, my lord, or the strength of your arm? Are you afraid I’ll piss on your burning sword and put it out?

The Westerlands: Tywin Lannister - I mean the guy just gets shit done, not always in the best way, but still, I can’t help but like him.

The Reach: Garlan Tyrell - Honestly a perfect knight from what we know. And despite the ‘there’s no POV so we can’t be sure’ arguments, I still choose to whole heartedly believe Garlan is perfect.

Dorne: Oberyn Martell - If only he was the elder sibling… As soon as Robert’s Rebellion was won, he was plotting another of his own. Would’ve beat The Mountain as well if he’d remained concentrated.

Honourable Mention: Weasel - Poor, poor girl. A true tragedy of war and I pray nightly that it’s confirmed she’s safe and sound and living out her best life.

A hunter lives a perilous life. If the boar had not done for Robert, it would have been a fall from a horse, the bite of a wood adder, an arrow gone astray ... the forest is the abbatoir of the gods. It was not wine that killed the king. It was your mercy.

-- Varys, Eddard XV

Do you agree with Varys that Robert was doomed, that if the boar didn't kill Robert, something else certainly would've?

Nymeria Sand mentions that she was "abed with the Fowler twins". Now, does this imply they were simply sharing Nym, or in an incestuous relationship?

Edit: I should rephrase. From how Dorne functions, from how the Dornish view sexual relationships, from the openness of it, Nymeria's words imply a sexual encounter. Now, from that sentence alone, comes the question of whether Nymeria being "abed with the Fowler twins" imply the two Fowler ladies are in a relationship with each other, or just both being with Nymeria at the same time. And if the former, well, it seems unusual to reference an incestuous relationship so casually, doesn't it?

Stannis's propostion to Renly was ridiculous

Early warning - Stannis's fans will not like this.

Every one remembers the infamous parley at the Storm's End. However I doubt that every one has the same opinion on the conversation between the two brothers.

From what I gathered, many people believe that the terms which Stannis gave to Renly were very generous and Renly - being the spoilt kid he was, was to dumb to accept them.

I would like to ask those people one question - What are you guys smoking!!?

Generous? Generous?????????

In what world was this a generous proposition???

This proposition is similar to those made by most greedy fishmongers and shows that Stannis's awareness of the politics is even below that of Robb Stark.

I shall explain my reasoning but before this I would like to give some more information for context.

The strenghts of both parties

Let's start with Renly.

This guy had probably the biggest chance of winning the throne.

He was Lord Paramount of Strom Lands. He had the loyalty of most of his marcher lords, which had significant military power and was quite popular with the rest of his lords.

He was also married to Margaery Tyrell - daughter of Mace Tyrell Lotr Paramount of the Reach. With house Tyrell, Renly gained the loyalty of House Taryl, Rowan, Oakheart, Hightower, Fossoway and many more. House Redwyne was off limits because both sons of Paxter Redwyne - lord of Arbor - were hostages to Lannisters, but it was only the matter of time before Renly got the twins back.

So in conclusion, Renly had the biggest army, alliance which was more powerful than the STAB alliance (Stark - Tully - Arryn - Baratheon) and he would soon gain a great fleet. He had also the backing of some of the richest lords in the realm.

Now let's talk about Stannis.

His situation is rather unique. Except for the royal fleet he doesn't have much. And funnily enough it's all Robert's and Jon Arryn's fault. They gave him the Dragonstone and they made him marry Selyse Florent.
Dragonstone is prestigious location but I think I don't have to say that prestige is asoiaf usually translates to useless. His marriage while in theory beneficial is also useless.

Florents are respected and have prestige but that's it. Many people like to repeat the books and wiki and say that Florents had the rights to Highgarden but the same can be said about Oakhearts, Redwynes and even Rowans. Stannis was married to them to make sure that Tyrells stay in line. However this marriage also guaranteed that Stannis will not have any funny ideas about usurping Robert.

Stannis is a skilled commander, thought I would call him a genius. His current situation in the books and his screw up at Blackwater bay proves my point.

To those who really want to argue with me, I would like to point out that the only people who are afraid of Stannis are Lannisters or to be more exact Tyrion and Cersei. That's because Kings Landing had no armies and poeple were starving and rioting. The capital would not would not resist a siege At the beginning of the books it was clear that Stannis had a chance of taking the city. Sure, it would be a pyrrhic victory and he wouldn't be able to hold the capital, but still he was still a very real danger. To Lannisters that is. Robb, Renly and even Greyjoys were stronger than Stannis and didn't have to worry about him.

So Stannis's situation was pretty much hopeless. The fact that Jon Arryn was planning on sending his son to "foster" to Stannis proves this. Jon knew that Stannis had zero to no power and he knew that he wouldn't live to see this war so he decided to give Stannis sweetrobin which guarantees him support of the Vale. Sadly that didn't work out.

So to sum this whole paragraph up, Stannis had little power while Renly had almost evrything. So if Stannis wanted to have any chance in this war he had to deal with his brother. Bearing this in mind let us go to another topic.

The "generous" propostion

So what did Stannis propose to Renly? He promised to name him his heir until his son is born and make him his hand.

That's it. If Stannis has a male heir, Renly will lose his position as the future king. And The Mannis expects Renly to just bend the knee. He even threatens him!

I will stop any comments that Stannis could win a battle with Renly under Strom's End. I can already see people writing entire essays on some hidden traps, logs, crows feet, wolf pits and other. Many of you expect that twenty thousand knights will simply charge at Stannis and will be destroyed proving once again the equality between the nobles and small folk and enacting a second Agincourt yada yada.

Firstly, Renly probably woundn't have chraged at the head of the army. He didn't have to, he had nothing to prove to his vassals. So he would command from the rear with lords who are experianced in warfare. Stannis is a great commander, but his reputation is overhyped in my opinion. He held Stroms End true but most of his fame comes from naval battles or from amphibious assults. He is a good commander but he isn't a genius. So I dare to say that commanders such as Randyl Tarly will be able to mach him in tactics.

With that out of the way let's return to this propostion. Stannis simply expects his borther to hand over everything with little in return. I will give this to Stannis, he is the eldest. The law is on his side, as many of his fans point out. However, I would like to point out that the entire world of asoiaf shows how little lords of Westeros actually care about the law. Bah! Robert's Rebellion shows this perfectly! The king was killed by his own kingsguard, the heir to the throne was killed by traitors in battle, and Targeryen princesess and future queen were murdered. And yet, the realms accepted Robert Baratehon as their rightful king.

Why?

Because the law can be influenced by the strongest. In the modern times this is harder but not impossible, more subtle means are used such as bribery or lobbying.

Stannis refuses to understand that his right means nothing, unless he has some strenght to bakc his claim and he doesn't have this power.

He goes to Renly, dictating terms as if he was already a king, while also threating his brother with his five thousand army. Meanwhile Renly smiles at him while being clad in a beautiful green armor, with fabulously armed knights, his twenty thousand army stands by behind him.

It's like mouse screaming at the amused lion.

Renly could bring him entire army of the south. The handship wasn't a gift for Renly, it was guaranteed to him. Who else would Stannis give the position for? Alester Florent? Davos Seaworth??

Besides Renly married Margaery and their family fully expected that their Rose of Highgarden will be the queen of seven kingdoms. They would never allow Renly to accept this deal and they had power to force their will on him

Despite all of this, Stannis could still win this in my opinion. As mentioned earlier he had one thing Renly didn't have. Legitimacy, which while ingored by most lords, was still quite valuable. He could use it to his advantage.

Though not in way he would hope.

Alternative proposition

Okay so what should have Stannis given Renly to get him on his side?

Handship goes to Renly without saying.

Titles and officed for the Tyrells - teeth grinding expected.

Rainbow Guard stays with Renly - I doubt that Stannis would even want them in the first place.

Renly becomes the facto co-ruler with Stannis

Stannis cedes the rights to Storm's End.

He allows small council to be filled with Renly's chosen men.

Proclamation that Tyrells are rightfull Lord of the Reach

​

Is this too much? Would Stannis be giving Renly waaaaaaaay to much power?

Yes

But he didn't have a choice.

The reality was that he was in a similar situation to Joffrey who gave all power to Tywin. Tywin had all the walth and the army so the Joffrey depended on his grandfather to stay on the throne.

Stannis had very little so he would have to give Renly a lot of his royal power to gain his support. And the worst part? The boons mentioned earlier are nothing. There is only one thing Stannis that could interest Renly.

Renly would become Stannis's heir.

How is it different from the original? Well simply. Renly would inherit the throne even if Stannis had a son. This is the only way Renly would support Stannis.

Some of you may argue that there would be no point to being a king if Stannis gave so much power to Renly, but I would answear that this is how game of thrones works. You don't always win everything.

Stannis could also accept Renly's offer which was actually generous. And I mean it without quotation marks. Renly didin't have to give his brother anything really. He was so powerful that the only danger to his power was Robb Stark. And yet he offered the castle to Stannis. Was it love, pity or some other intrigue I don't know, but his propostion was the one that was generous.

I can't really understand how the Stormlands could generate any revenues; yes its land is arable, but much less so than, say, the Reach, and constantly under pressure from poor weather conditions.

Every other kingdom makes some sense; the North is more autarkic, the Vale has mining and Gulltown, the Riverlands controls important trade routes and likely has stuff like fishing, the Westerlands obviously have their gold, the Reach is the richest in agriculture and is essentially the religious and academic capital of Westeros in addition to having the largest port outside of King's Landing, Dorne's got its wines and whatnot, but what does the Stormlands have?

It’s common knowledge that the first book was written with quite a few differences compared to the rest of the series, what are some examples of these?

So I'm no professional asoiaf theorist. But I love watching all the videos and stuff about them. And I just love some of the crazier ones just because of their absurdity. One of the ones I've come across is the whole "Roose is a vampire" theory. It was a bit too crazy for me, however I thought of something that I think would make way more sense.

The Stark sigil is a wolf and they skinchange into wolves. It's said that Mormonts can skinchange bears, Farwynds can skinchange sea lions and such, and I believe it's said somewhere that reeds can skinchange lizard lions. The Bolton's are a noble first man house just like those. But I don't believe any Bolton Skinchanger is ever mentioned. And what is their sigil? A man without skin.

It's said that skinchanging a human is one of the unforgivable acts of skinchanging, one of the big no nos. I think that the Bolton's, and more specifically Roose, ARE Skinchangers. But they specialize in people. Such crimes against humanity are right up the Bolton alley.

And additionally when coupled with the whole "Skinchangers transfer their consciousness to their animal when they die" thing, that could be how Roose is "immortal" as per the vampire theory. Some older Bolton transferring his conscious to his children upon death. Or maybe Roose is the first Skinchanger in a while like the Starks.

Thematically this fits super well. The Bolton's are already said to have worn the skins of their enemies as cloaks. Maybe that's not as literal as we're lead to believe.

tl:Dr the Bolton's are Skinchangers but specialize in people, rather than any animal.

Like half the realm did rise up for him and while Bloodraven did snark that it was dumb people would prefer a guy who can hit shit over a scholar he’s a biased source

I don’t think this ever happens in the history of the Targaryens, but how would this go down?

Say during or at the end of the Dance, one side has been defeated but a dragonrider remains - Aemond, Daeron, Daemon, etc. The new ruler doesn’t want to execute them (kinslaying), so they send them to the Wall. Would the new king/queen keep the rider’s dragon in the dragonpit? Would it be impossible to prevent the dragon from escaping and finding its rider on their way north?

I have trouble imagining a scenario where a dragonrider is forced to follow through with traveling all the way to the Wall and remain there while they have a living dragon bonded to them. Wouldn’t Caraxes find Daemon at the Wall? I can’t see him or Aemond staying there to freeze and rot.

Thoughts?

There's not a lot of information I could find on the 3rd Blackfyre Rebellion, but a relatively good amount is out there on the 4th, particularly concerning who participated and the details of the battle and Ser Duncan's involvement killing Daemon III.

What I'd like to know is, since Egg is present in both the 3rd and 4th Rebellions, would Dunk be there too?

I could only find small details about Haegon being killed dishonorably so I doubt Dunk slew him personally like Daemon III. (I'm very curious as to the circumstance that would allow Dunk, a hedge Knight, to 1v1 slay Daemon III)

Dunk isn't a Kingsguard yet, but I'd imagine he'd be persuaded by Egg to get involved and especially to help Maekar.

It does seem like the specifics have been intentionally left blank for future stories, moreso than other historical events we know of, but I am wondering if there are any other details that aren't covered in the WIKI.

A Clash of Kings - Arya X:

"You stay here with the horses," said Arya. "I'll get rid of him. Come quick when I call." Gendry nodded. Hot Pie said, "Hoot like an owl when you want us to come." "I'm not an owl," said Arya. "I'm a wolf. I'll howl."

Arya slid her dagger out and drew it across his throat, as smooth as summer silk. His blood covered her hands in a hot gush and he tried to shout but there was blood in his mouth as well. "Valar morghulis," she whispered as he died. When he stopped moving, she picked up the coin. Outside the walls of Harrenhal, a wolf howled long and loud. She lifted the bar, set it aside, and pulled open the heavy oak door. By the time Hot Pie and Gendry came up with the horses, the rain was falling hard. "You killed him!" Hot Pie gasped.

She never calls to them in the text, so did they respond to the wolf call from outside?

Did Arya make the wolf call happen through warging?

OR is this metaphorical and more about Arya feeling detached and hearing her own noises as external?

If this is warging from Arya, I think it's the earliest instance of it outside of wolf dreams from her.

As above. If for example Bran did became king and everybody decided to become independent which house do you think would claim Kings Landing? Would a different house declare themselves Lord Paramount of the Crownlands? Would it default to whoever claims Dragonstone?

I absolutely love the Sand Snakes in the book (Lady Nym, goo goo ga ga). They were some of the most butchered characters in the show which was very disappointing, and with everything else expected for TWoW, I feel like they are rarely mentioned here.

What are your thoughts on their roles in TWoW and beyond? What kind of mischief will they get up to in the capital? I personally don't think Cersei will escape their clutches, neither will Tommen. Tyene with the High Sparrow? That is gonna be interesting. Sarella in Oldtown? Shiiiiiiiiet. Elia about to meet Aegon? They seem to be around so much of the action to come! Hype!

In the first chapter of AFFC Aeron Damphair meets the Goodbrothers, particularly one name Gormond.

Gormond et Isembart is a French medieval poem/ narrative about a french lord who goes into exile and renounces christianity, joining forces with Saracen's ( Arabia). He incites the Saracen king Gormond to attack france and burn down the Abbey of Saint-Riquier.

The poem is based on the Norsemen invasion in 881 that burned down the Abbey of Saint-Riquier.

Euron hasn't exactly allied with the warlocks of Qarth but he is certainly using their power.

Putting too much stock in names being references to certain stories or having certain definitions that foreshadow events to come can lead to very silly tinfoil and George isn't beholden to follow the same events as happened in history... but I love these kind of really obscure references and was interested if anyone else knew of some more examples.

I hate how almost all of Ned's enemies hate him for the most pettiest reasons. Balon Grey hates Ned for answering Roberts summons? Jamie hates Ned because he got caught red handed killing his King and offered zero explanation for it? Barbery Dustin hates Ned because Rickard Stark married Brandon to Catelyn and Ned couldn't drag her husband's dead body from Dorne all the way back North? Heck even Stannis dislikes Ned because Robert loved him better? Like what? Seriously?